LGBTQ Thoughts [movie spoilers]

[dongregg]

...After some more searching, I finally found a picture of some authentic Swedish peasants. Its painted a little later, in the 1790s, but it does suggest that men at the time wore their hair not short, but still not as long as Eli in the movie. However, this is after the French revolution, when wigs had fallen out of fashion, so it might have been different just a decade earlier.

Good find.

[drakkar]

Yep. Your niece is being herself. Since the battle lines are all drawn and not moving, I was going to let this thread rest, but casting your niece as "a girl behaving boyish" reminds me of how far into left field the thread has drifted. It seems to me a collection of gender stereotyping that is inimical to the best of LGBTQ thinking. Your niece is who she is and Eli is Eli.

I am simply stating that the boys act boyish in LTROI, and that the story has a nuanced and dynamic take on this, rather than a stereotypic. This "Eli is Eli" appears stereotype, and almost makes it look like you try to stifle an interesting discussion. Klesk using experiences with his relatives as examples in this contest is OK, IMO, except that there are no tomboys among the main characters in LTROI, just boys.

[dongregg]

Yep. Your niece is being herself. Since the battle lines are all drawn and not moving, I was going to let this thread rest, but [drakar's] casting your niece as "a girl behaving boyish" reminds me of how far into left field the thread has drifted. It seems to me a collection of gender stereotyping that is inimical to the best of LGBTQ thinking. Your niece is who she is and Eli is Eli.

I am simply stating that the boys act boyish in LTROI, and the story has a very nuanced and dynamic take on this, rather than a stereotypic. Klesk dragging his relatives into this just blurs the picture and has little to do with the storytelling in LTROI.

But I'm glad Klesk did. It drew attention to the casual use of gender stereotyping. And it's not the idea of discussing the nuanced aspects of LTROI that I'm addressing; it is the stereotypes that are used as "evidence" of how we are to see Eli. For me (and for others), Eli of the film is a boy who was neutered before spermarch and is therefore androgynous (as were the castrati of certain European courts).

It is fun to then pick out instances of femininity or masculinity, but 200-plus years of an androgynous existence are part of the equation. Above all, s/he is Eli the victim, one who hasn't hung out with boys or girls his/her own age until s/he connects unexpectedly with Oskar. For most of his/her existence, s/he is principally a prepubescent child focused on survival, which includes overcoming and killing adults while avoiding being apprehended.

[drakkar]

But I'm glad Klesk did. It drew attention to the casual use of gender stereotyping.

On the contrary, since gender is one of the dynamic factors in the story, interesting to look into how JAL go about this, how Eli and Oskar interact etcetera.

Eli of the film is a boy who was neutered before spermarch and is therefore androgynous (as were the castrati of certain European courts).

Are you sure? You seem to have concluded out of convenience, trying to talk off any discussion with "magic words" like "gender stereotyping". Yes, this might be unpleasant matters to discuss. However, JAL digging into stuff like this contributes to making him the excellent author he is, and deserves the attention from a discussion forum. When Klesk want to use his niece in the discussion, you come running with your "magic words" again, as if there were a problem.

but 200-plus years of an androgynous existence are part of the equation.

What's also part of the equation is the development Eli undergoes when he starts to regain his humanity trough the friendship with Oskar, and how/if the gender plays a role here.

Above all, s/he is Eli the victim, one who hasn't hung out with boys or girls his/her own age until s/he connects unexpectedly with Oskar. For most of his/her existence, s/he is principall

I remember there was a discussion whether Eli appeared as a girl out of convenience, making it easier getting close to his victims.

[dongregg]

Eli of the film is a boy who was neutered before spermarch and is therefore androgynous (as were the castrati of certain European courts).

Are you sure? You seem to have concluded out of convenience, trying to talk off any discussion with "magic words" like "gender stereotyping". Yes, this might be unpleasant matters to discuss. However, JAL digging into stuff like this contributes to making him the excellent author he is, and deserves the attention from a discussion forum. When Klesk want to use his niece in the discussion, you come running with your "magic words" again, as if there were a problem.

Mmmm. Magic words.

[JToede]

Magic words?..How about Avada Kedavra.

[PeteMork]

For me (and for others), Eli of the film is a boy who was neutered before spermarche and is therefore androgynous (as were the castrati of certain European courts).

IMO, this is the single most significant event in Eli's life, at least with respect to physical and mental changes due to maturation. Any 'boyish' or 'girlish' qualities she may have acquired were 18th century cultural influences. And those would have been acquired by Elias up until he was neutered, infected, and henceforth isolated from humanity for the most part.

It is fun to then pick out instances of femininity or masculinity, but 200-plus years of an androgynous existence are part of the equation. Above all, s/he is Eli the victim, one who hasn't hung out with boys or girls his/her own age until s/he connects unexpectedly with Oskar. For most of his/her existence, s/he is principally a prepubescent child focused on survival, which includes overcoming and killing adults while avoiding being apprehended.

In other words, I think dongregg got it right here.The next 200-plus years of her life would have a much more significant effect on her gender-related point of view than those first few years. And I suspect the resulting hodge-podge would have an unpredictable mix of non-genetic gender-independent behaviors, which we, depending on our own gender biases, will continue to try to ascribe to Eli's 'boyhood' or 'girlhood.'

(But I have to admit, it's great fun!)

[a_contemplative_life]

Magic words?..How about Avada Kedavra.

Hocus pocus?

[dongregg]

Hocus pocus dominocus sounded so cool when I was little.

ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS
(ROBERT HENDRICKSON 1987 page 257)
"Hocus Pocus… neither is there positive proof that Hocus Pocus is a blasphemous Scandinavian corruption of the first words of the consecration in the Catholic Mass. Hoc est corpus(filii). This is the Body (of the Son of God). Many scholars lean to this last theory, pointing out that 'hokus pokus fileokus' is still unwittingly used in Norway and Sweden, just as 'hocus pocus dominocus'. … perhaps the word does originally come from the perversion of the sacramental blessing…"

[Ash]

I remember there was a discussion whether Eli appeared as a girl out of convenience, making it easier getting close to his victims.

I would say Eli didn't have to try too hard to appear feminine according to Oskar's judgement.
"Round face, small nose. Like one of those paper dolls in Hemmets Journal. Very... pretty." About the opposite to Lina - who did the casting anyway??? Not that Lina isn't very pretty, but not Eliesque.



As for the hair, an impoverished serf's son in the 16th century would have short hair after his mum or dad cut it, and longer, perhaps much longer, until it needed its next cut. It wouldn't a static thing.
Appearances can be very deceptive anyway. My brother and I were billeted within a family in a rural town in the 60's for a soccer comp. We played with the two "boys" in the family for 3 days and it wasn't till the last night, when I walked into the bathroom to clean my teeth that .... I still remember telling my brother - "They're girls... girls!!"