LGBTQ Thoughts [movie spoilers]

[seigezunt]

This is sort of jumping off from my question in the book forum, but along another route.

I've been very curious how the LGBTQ community received LTROI, particularly folks in the trans community. I have friends in the community, but I've never brought the movie up because my question is kinda spoiler-heavy, re Eli's gender.

What do trans people make of this story? So Eli is basically of no gender, but presents as female in attire, but tells Oskar s/he is not a girl. I know some folks in the trans community have had issues with other films in which trans characters are played by cisgender actors, but Eli's not transgender per se. And Eli's gender status comes as a result of being attacked and mutilated, basically.

But the film really, IMO, has elements that speak to all of us who "color outside the lines," and the fact that there is this love regardless of the character's gender status I find poignant. But is it poignant because it's a love to file under "other"? Is it tragic? I don't think so, but I'm wondering if someone might see it that way, and not appreciate it.

I hope I'm expressing myself clearly enough. I guess a simple question is, has the film been analyzed in the gay/trans press along the lines of these themes?

[sauvin]

The jury still seems to be out as to why Eli chooses to present as vaguely girlish. My own opinion, coloured as it is by the culture of the time and place where I grew up, is that it's a part of the camouflage because little girls are often seen as more vulnerable than boys. The scene where Jocke provides a meal is an example. I think it's also strongly possible that Eli would have learned a very long time ago that men who like their grapes really, really green aren't so uncommon, and tend to be very easily lured into a relatively secluded area for a quiet, unobserved snack.

The same jury seems still to be out as to precisely what Eli was saying when telling Oskar "I'm not a girl". It could be a reference to having been (physically) undeniably a boy before being turned, but it could also just be a veiled warning that Oskar was now sharing a blanket with something that's other than fully human. Either interpretation works, is appropriate and totally relevant, and the two propositions are hardly mutually exclusive.

Just how sensitive a person of preteen years might be to questions of gender depends partly on who's doing the talking. I've heard too many stories of people who'd realised they were "different" somehow before they were eight or nine years old to dismiss them out of hand, but it seems unlikely such questions would reach anything remotely resembling critical mass until puberty, and it's very possible Eli never experienced it.

In other words, I think you're right: between Oskar and Eli, gender just isn't relevant.

[dongregg]

I've been very curious how the LGBTQ community received LTROI, particularly folks in the trans community...What do trans people make of this story? So Eli is basically of no gender, but presents as female in attire, but tells Oskar s/he is not a girl. I know some folks in the trans community have had issues with other films in which trans characters are played by cisgender actors, but Eli's not transgender per se. And Eli's gender status comes as a result of being attacked and mutilated, basically.

But the film really, IMO, has elements that speak to all of us who "color outside the lines," and the fact that there is this love regardless of the character's gender status I find poignant. But is it poignant because it's a love to file under "other"? Is it tragic? I don't think so, but I'm wondering if someone might see it that way, and not appreciate it.

The gender mash-up has served to spark a lot of discussion, none of it very clarifying, IMO. If there were only the novel...but there's the film. "Genderless" Eli is played by a girl who is presented (so I and some others think) as increasingly feminine as the film reaches toward a climax, but what does that mean? I mainly think the gender issue is part of the story and we're stuck with it. By that I mean, neither Oskar nor Eli seem to be too concerned about it, except in passing. Eli expresses doubts about why Oskar is attracted to her. (Forgive the her. I get tired of writing he/she.) Oskar sees she isn't a boy, and she says she isn't a girl, but larger issues seem to be moving the story along, not gender. Oskar finally gets it that she is a vampire, and he wants to know just how "other" she really is. Is she dead? Is she old? And he has to accept that, while she really is just Eli--not a scary, nonhuman, undead creature--she is still a vampire and a murderer who most likely robs her victims. So I think the gender issue is never sufficiently brought to the foreground such that Oskar and Eli could wrestle with it. Given that, I think it's impossible to make much headway with it. The best I've got out of others' comments is it is just one more thing--and by no means the most important thing--that Oskar has to accept as he stumbles toward unconditional acceptance of Eli. It isn't trivial, but other issues push it to the background. Any way, the whole "acceptance" thing is pretty poignant, isn't it?

A major reason I find gender to be of less importance in the film is Oskar's inexperience with any kind of boy-girl (or boy-boy) relationship folded into the fact that sex is not much on his mind. He's prepubescent, which doesn't mean he's not curious; rather, he just has not experienced testosterone poisoning yet. And of course Eli never will. Put another way, Eli's "otherness" is mostly about her being a vampire. The basis of their fierce attachment to one another lies elsewhere. It may be partly because of desperate loneliness. For Eli, it may be a reawakening of the happy times before she was turned. In the end, I don't think anyone understands the power of "first love" -- not in this tale, not in real life, and not in any story. Yet that is the magical force that transforms both of them and gives them the strength to create a new life arc. It propels them into a new story, if you will, one that requires unconditional acceptance as well as an unshakeable attachment to one other.

[intrige]

I am in that community, not for being transegender though But anyway. Where I live there are very few trans people I know and I have yet to ask any of them or rather, introduce any of them to LTROI to know their opinion on this.

BUT I want to say that saying that movie Eli is transegender and chose to be a girl, just doens't do it for me. Lina was a femenine girl and sure as hell looked and acted as one. The dress Eli chose from Oskar and his mom's drawers was too big but not worn out. Even though Eli did have a scar it was briefly shown and then nothing else was explained. For what most people know who do not take interest in doing more research after seing the film, Eli is a girl. So in the movie, Eli is 90% girl, I find it not to cound as greatly in this thread.

But in the book, it is different. Eli does not act like a girl, does not dress like a girl. Looks like a girl, talks like a really socially awkard kid. Use a dress once, an old super worn out summer dress nobody would miss if it was not given back. Eli from the book is more.. Gender fluid, which is just what JAL wanted. Genderless, a bit of both maybe, a bit of none. Eli has no gender and that's the point. In the LGBTQ community it is called genderqueer. Somewhere in the middle.

And while we're at it. Both I and many others have wondered what Oskar and Eli's gender preference, or rather sexual orientation might be. Even though they are pre-pubesent and does not have a proper sexuality just yet. Some say that Oskar is straight because he thinks Eli is at girl first. Or that he is gay because he acsepts Eli for being born a boy. Or that Eli is gay because he liked Oskar who is clearly a boy. But after thinking for many years about this. Just having to sort this out in my head for hell's sake. I think the both of them, if they are anything at all, they are both pan-romantic. Some onf you might have heard of pansexual. Which is that you are sexually atracted to personalleties, and not gender. You would not mind making love to a transegender woman because they are such a lovely person. Basically. But romantic is the ones you have feelings for, fall in love in, and can live forever with. For example, my parents are hetrosexual, and hetro-romantic. They made me, so.. Haha. But if Oskar and Eli were anything, maybe forever the both of them are asexual. And pan-romantic.

[PeteMork]

I tend to agree with Intrige. I also think it's easier and probably quite common for pre-pubescent children to be 'pan-romantic.' That is, before culture gets in the way.

[intrige]

No I think kids before puberty are hetro-romantic, homo-romantic and what other orientations there are. Nothing is sexual yet anyhow. But I think Oskar and Eli are pan-romantic

[drakkar]

As Intrige says, there is a slight difference between book and film. It is no coincidence that film Eli was played by a girl who looked and moved like a girl. Alfredson wanted Eli and Oskar to be complementary, "two sides of the same coin", where Eli is the strong and dark girl.
http://sfi.se/PageFiles/8169/L%C3%85TDE ... TERVJU.pdf

Still he kept Eli's boyish traits ("what are you doing" instead of "who are you/what's your name" it their first meeting, and the "hit back" instead of comforing Oskar when he is hurt), and he showed Eli's neutering scar, and initially meant to show neutering scene. He also stated the the story is asexual.

[a_contemplative_life]

IIRC a paper's been published about this. I will try to find it for you.

[seigezunt]

IIRC a paper's been published about this. I will try to find it for you.

Thank you! Much appreciated.

[Bloody Mary]

The jury still seems to be out as to why Eli chooses to present as vaguely girlish. My own opinion, coloured as it is by the culture of the time and place where I grew up, is that it's a part of the camouflage because little girls are often seen as more vulnerable than boys. The scene where Jocke provides a meal is an example. I think it's also strongly possible that Eli would have learned a very long time ago that men who like their grapes really, really green aren't so uncommon, and tend to be very easily lured into a relatively secluded area for a quiet, unobserved snack.

I like this idea. That way, I can think of Eli as doing society a favor. I love this movie so much that I really, really want to like him/her.